Podcast: Powering the NC State University Libraries, With David Tully

Theme Music (00:01):

Please listen carefully.

Taylor Pardue (00:08):

Welcome to the NC State Philanthropy Podcast, telling the world how we Think and Do through the support of our friends, alumni and more. I’m your host, Taylor Pardue.

(00:18):

On this episode, we’re joined by David Tully, Principal Librarian for Student Affordability at the NC State University Libraries, to talk about how philanthropy powers its efforts.

(00:31):

Thanks so much for joining us today, David. To kick things off, just tell listeners a little bit about yourself and what first brought you to NC State.

David Tully (00:51):

Yeah, thank you so much, Taylor. It’s a real pleasure to be here today and talk to you. So, I’ve been at the Libraries, now, at NC State for about 13 years, and what brought me here, really, was a chance encounter at an Irish pub in Winston-Salem, would you believe? I went to university in England; did my undergraduate in education with the goal of becoming a primary school teacher, which is an elementary school teacher. I come from a background, a family of teachers — it’s sort of the family business. So, for the longest time, that’s what I thought I would do. I would go into that sort of field. And then, during the course of my undergraduate degree, I did my work experience, and I wasn’t really feeling it like I thought that I would.

(01:37):

And I think teaching is a profession where you really have to love it, otherwise you’re not really going to do the kids justice, or yourself justice, either. So, at that point, I had to sort of try and pivot and think, “Well, what do I want to do with my career?” I always knew it was going to be around education. I always felt that’s still the area that I wanted to be in, but I wasn’t sure exactly what that would look like. Anyway, fast forward: I sort of fell into a career, and I was working for a nonprofit, and that was fun and rewarding in lots of different ways, but I knew in my heart it wasn’t still really what I was meant to do, what my calling was. So, I decided just to take some time out while I was in a position whereby I didn’t have too many responsibilities on me.

(02:24):

And I essentially took a year out and did something that I had always wanted to do, and that was travel. And I’d never been to the United States. It was always a country that I wanted to visit. Growing up in the UK, you’re exposed to a lot of Americana — the culture, television, movies, music, fashion, so on. So, I decided to visit. I had a friend over here through university, and through that friend, I ended up meeting my, now, wife in that Irish pub in Winston-Salem of all places. And that really changed my life. Fast forward a few years later: We decided to get married, and we decided that it was best for us as a couple for me to relocate. At that point, I decided that the career that I really wanted to go into was libraries. I saw myself as a librarian. It made all the sense in the world to me. I don’t know why I didn’t notice that 10 years earlier, but better late than never.

Taylor Pardue (03:21):

Absolutely.

David Tully (03:22):

And when we moved, we ended up in Raleigh, and we ended up living down the street from NC State. So, at that point, I knew very little about NC State, but I knew that I wanted to have a career in libraries already. So, the natural place for me to look was the university down the road from where I was. Little did I know that the Libraries were not a typical academic library. So, that was a real nice surprise for me from what I found once I began working at the Libraries. So, I began back in 2013; I was hired for a second-shift role working at one of our service centers at Hill Library, and my hours was sort of 3 p.m. until midnight or so.

(04:08):

My wife worked the opposite schedule, so for the first year of our marriage, we only saw each other in passing, but it was all good. And once I began working at the Libraries at NC State, I saw a completely different side of libraries than I had experienced when I was an undergraduate student. It was, seemed to be, so much more forward-thinking. They had things like recording studios. They were building a Makerspace at the time. Hunt Library had not long opened. I had never seen anything like that before. It was all just so inspiring and sort of reaffirmed my belief and my commitment that I did want to pursue this particular career in the role that I had. I worked pretty closely with students, both student workers and also just students that were frequenting the Libraries, and I really, really enjoyed that. And I think that kind of crystallized that I saw myself as a librarian that was working closely with students. And yeah, a few years later, I completed my master’s degree. I applied for and was really fortunate to be accepted into the Fellows program at the Libraries, which is something that I had pinpointed years before because the Fellows, they were just extraordinary Fellows the Libraries were recruiting that were just doing amazing things. So, I felt like, I count myself very fortunate that I could join that program, and a few more job changes at the Libraries later, sort of here I am.

Taylor Pardue (05:37):

You mentioned trying to find the right career path for you in general, but it’s also great that you found, once you found it overall, that you found a place here at the university that you could stay in, really grow in, and find different roles and move up with as well.

David Tully (05:51):

Yeah. The Libraries, it was always a place where I felt that I could grow, that there was going to be opportunities there. I mean, again, we’re a large academic library. I have colleagues who work at academic libraries elsewhere that [are] nowhere near the size that we are, but that meant that there were more types of librarians doing things that I wouldn’t have initially sort of bargained for. I had, in fairness, I had a pretty old-fashioned view of libraries before I worked at NC State. Our Libraries, we are like a hub of campus, essentially. We’re one of the heartbeats, the Libraries. I think we and others refer to ourselves as “NC State’s competitive advantage.” And there’s a reason why students were comfortable enough to do that, is that they enjoyed being at the Libraries. They felt that they belonged at the Libraries. It was a place not just to come and study, though that’s really important, or perform research, but also a place to meet friends and collaborate together and maybe take some time out as well. And it’s just a really, really cool environment in general.

Taylor Pardue (06:59):

If listeners didn’t catch that, you mentioned “Libraries” a few times, plural. I really think that sets NC State apart. Talk a little bit about that 30,000-foot view of, what are the Libraries, and what all do we offer here on campus?

David Tully (07:13):

So, when I refer to the “Libraries,” I’m really referring to five different libraries and five different buildings. So, you have the D.H. Hill Jr. Library over on main campus. You have the Hunt Library over on Centennial Campus. Those are our two main libraries. Those are the two libraries that are open 24/5 throughout the week, essentially. You have the reading room at the College of Natural Resources, which is at Jordan Hall. You have the Design Library, which is over at Brooks, and you have the Vet Med Library, which is over on their campus. So, yeah, when I refer to the Libraries as plural, I’m referring to those five different libraries.

Taylor Pardue (07:55):

All of them are exceptional, and then to think of — NC State would be blessed to have any of these, and then to think that we have five is just a fantastic system for students and faculty and staff and everyone to take advantage of.

David Tully (08:07):

There’s a place at the Libraries for everybody. In terms of the facilities, I think we’re second to none. We have outstanding places, whether it’s you want to study, we have quiet reading rooms — we still have quiet reading rooms at the Libraries because students still need that, but we also have places where students can gather. Group study rooms, multiple, across Hill and Hunt Library. But we also have spaces, really exciting spaces where students can learn experiential-, take part in experiential-learning and learn skills that will equip them well in their post-college careers. So, think places like — or spaces, rather. You have to forgive me on that. We do refer them to spaces such as the Makerspace at Hill Library. We have a Virtual Reality Studio as well. Digital media, lab media production spaces at Hunt Library as well. We have an Innovation Studio at Hill. We have a Visualization Lab at Hill and Hunt Library. We have a esports lab at Hunt Library now. So, yeah, there really is the endless opportunities, I think, to take advantage of the Libraries and pick up new skills, meet new friends, and sort of hunker down and get that paper done, whatever it might be. And also just really friendly staff that genuinely care about students and faculty and want to do whatever it takes to support them.

Taylor Pardue (09:42):

Absolutely. I love that. I think it’s a perfect segue of talking about “a place for everyone.” Talk about the place that you’re in right now as a staff member at the Libraries; your current role and what was involved with that.

David Tully (09:54):

Yeah, so, my role. So, I’m the principal librarian for student affordability, which is a relatively sort of new title. I’m still getting used to it. My role is great. I think I have one of the most enjoyable jobs at the Libraries in lots of different ways because I get to do what I’m really passionate about. I get to support students. I get to be at the forefront of the Libraries’ efforts to support students in terms of doing what we can to make education, to make higher ed more affordable, more accessible and more impactful as well. So, I take just immense joy, essentially, in working alongside students, but also just working alongside my colleagues and as instructors to do cool things that are going to support students in those three particular areas.

Taylor Pardue (10:42):

Talk a little bit about how philanthropy just runs all through the role that you’re in right now.

David Tully (10:46):

Yeah, I think philanthropy is hugely important to the work that I do in lots of different ways. Within my particular role, there’s a few key areas that I focus on. One of them is student scholarships. The Libraries for the last several years has been building a student scholarships program. Thanks in large part to private philanthropy, it scaled it to heights that even a few years ago did not feel realistic, and it has taken it to the point now where we can dream really big. So, for instance, we began awarding partial scholarships to our student workers.

(11:28):

As a sidebar, the Libraries is one of the largest employers on campus of student workers, employing around 250 students per year. And about five years ago, the Libraries as part of its overall goal, strategic goal to support student affordability, decided to go down this path as well. I mean, we work with amazing student workers all the time, performing all sorts of different roles at the Libraries.

(11:53):

Many of them have financial need, in some cases significant financial need. So, the Libraries, as part of that strategic plan, decided to build this program from scratch. That began back in 2018. We awarded two scholarships, partial scholarships, to two students worth $2,500 each. And that was a really big deal for us; obviously for the students concerned as well. And we stayed like that for the next couple of years, and due to just the generosity of our donors, of our supporters, we’ve been able to build that very quickly over the past two to three years in particular and to scale it to new heights. So, I mentioned we had one award at the beginning. We now offer 18 different types of scholarships, and we’ve gone from supporting two students a year to, this past year, we handed out 28 different awards.

(12:49):

Some of those scholarships allow us to award more than one student. So, philanthropy, the generosity of our donors has enabled us now to award $150,000 per year and growing as well. And we think we’re now in a position whereby we can be really ambitious. I mean, there’s amazing programs all around us at NC State, incredible scholarships, programs that have set a template really, I think, for what a successful program looks like in terms of how you can build and sustain it and grow it over a number of years. So, that’s something that I’m particularly interested in is, “How can we do something like that at the Libraries?” I mentioned before: We have hundreds of students with financial need at the Libraries. Can we get to a position whereby we can scale it so the majority or even all of those students can receive financial support from the Libraries?

(13:48):

And the way that we’ll get there is through the continued support of our current, but also new donors as well who can join us on this particular journey but also push us forward as well. I think that’s what we’re looking for and “program.” OK, there’s certainly a financial aspect to it for students that’s necessary. I think the average award that we handed out last year was close to $5,000 apiece. So, around half the cost of tuition or housing. I would say, at the Libraries, whether you’re a scholarship recipient or not, for all of our student workers, the Libraries have used their employment as not just a transactional relationship. We genuinely care about the students that work for us. We want to do what we can to position them to be successful, and every job has opportunities for growth. So, whether you’re working in spaces that we talked about before, that, those more experiential-learning spaces, you’re learning skills that you can add to a résumé.

(14:58):

In some cases, you are leading workshops. For instance, you are working with instructors, or in some cases you are meeting donors, representing the Libraries that way. And then, beyond that, we support students in developing leadership skills, in developing project management skills. We want to, when it becomes time for students to graduate, we want them to look back on their time working at the Libraries and feel as though they were supported; as though they had opportunities; as though they’ve had experiences of working with us that they can take with them and are going to help them be successful in their post-college careers.

Taylor Pardue (15:38):

Absolutely. The student working opportunities alone, like you said — it’s not just a paycheck, as helpful as that would be to students as well. But then you talk about the different life skills, the different job skills that they pick up as well — huge in its own right. Then you throw in the scholarship support — huge in its own right. But a lot of times, we think of tuition and even housing as, “Those are the costs for students,” but there are so many additional costs that creep up. Textbooks, I know, are one that sometimes can really put students in a financial pinch. Talk a little bit about the Libraries’ program to help with textbooks as well.

David Tully (16:15):

Well, I think course materials, the cost of course materials, can have a huge impact upon student success. So, when you look at the estimated cost of attendance and you look at those different line items — tuition, housing, transportation — course materials is included, but it’s one of the lower costs, but it can have a special impact on students in lots of different ways. Yet the cost of course materials is estimated this year at around $1,000 — significant, but going back to those line items, not the biggest ticket item for sure. But having access to your materials or not can have a huge impact upon your success at NC State for sure. There are some courses that are built around the textbook. There are some courses that, in order to access your homework, you have to pay to get an access code, otherwise you’re locked out.

(17:09):

So, it’s really significant. But we recognize that, for a lot of students, trying to make ends meet, of course, they’re focused more on housing, transportation, food — that sort of thing. So, it’s easy to maybe overlook or underestimate the impact of having access or not to your materials. And there’s all sorts of data that suggests that 65% of students won’t purchase the materials, citing cost as the primary reason why. And in lots of cases, they look to the Libraries to provide alternate access to those materials when we can. Obviously, if it’s digital, if it’s an access code, that’s difficult for us. So, the Libraries recognized this problem a long time ago, and we began figuring out, “Well, what can we do outside of lending physical textbooks or offering ebook access?” And in the case of ebook access, we are unable to offer access to all of the digital materials for lots of different reasons that I won’t go into, but mainly because of publishers being reluctant to do so for obvious reasons perhaps. So, we were interested in thinking, “Well, what else can we do?” And one way in which we looked at it was, “Well, what can a textbook not do?” So, if you are an instructor and you are teaching whatever particular sort of discipline, unless you’ve written the material yourself, and in some cases you have, in lots of cases you haven’t, you are using somebody else’s work, somebody else’s words.

(18:47):

And that can be fine, but it doesn’t exactly always tailor perfectly to your class and the content that you cover and the way that you want to teach it. So, the Libraries began exploring, “Well, what can we do to support instructors who want to create or adapt personalized materials developed for that class, and how can we do so in a way that makes it freely available for all students from day one?” Which is another thing I think that’s really important is having that immediate access. So, there was born the Alt-Textbook Project — “Alt” standing for “alternative,” in case my accent has fudged that. And that was immediately successful, and we are here 11 years later, I’m doing a presentation on the program next week at the Conference for Faculty Excellence. I know the numbers off by heart. Over the past 10, 11 years, we’ve supported 110 courses.

(19:50):

So, that’s 110 courses, at least. In some of those cases, it has been used in more than one that have developed an Alt-Textbook Project. In that time, we’ve worked with about 150 instructors and we’ve estimated that around 90,000, at least, students have taken a course using an Alt-Textbook Project or materials developed by the Alt-Textbook Project. And that has probably saved students in the region of around $14 million in that time. So, an astronomical amount of money, for sure. And we did a recent study a year or two ago that tried to measure the impact of that program, and we found that about 75% of instructors in the first eight years — because, obviously, the more recent ones are being used or it is still in development — around 75% of instructors who developed materials within the first eight years are still using that. And when we look closely at the reasons why the 25% [are] not, in most cases, that person had retired or moved on to a different university.

(20:56):

So, for instructors who are still at NC State, the overwhelming majority are still using that material. And that means that every student in subsequent semesters is having access to that material. So, cost savings are just going up every semester based upon just repeat use of those particular materials. So, that’s a win-win situation for the student. You have day one access, you don’t pay anything, it’s permanent access, it doesn’t expire, and it’s shareable as well. You’re not restricted to any sort of particular format. And then, for the instructor, you have complete control over your materials. They’re openly licensed, so they’re still copyrighted, but you have some additional freedoms that you wouldn’t find with an all-rights-reserved textbook. So, an instructor can go in and essentially tailor that material to that particular class, and the cool thing is, because it’s openly licensed, they’re shareable beyond campus.

(22:00):

So, we’ve had instructors who have developed a textbook, and sometimes it’s not a textbook; sometimes it’s a series of videos that are made available on YouTube. Sometimes it’s a virtual reality experience. Sometimes it’s building a resource that’s more interactive. I’m working on a project at the moment where an instructor is developing, essentially, a video game. So, going back to what I initially said, in lots of these cases, we’re doing stuff that a textbook can’t do. We’re going beyond that, and we’re looking to support instructors who are looking to engage students in a deeper, maybe more meaningful way and tailor material to their particular audiences. And we’re able to do so in part thanks to philanthropy. The program, the Alt-Textbook Project, we provide grants to instructors to do this work. It’s not something that we ask folks to do for free. In some cases, [it’s] impossible to do so, and instructors are busy, right? They’re never not going to be busy. This is an additional thing that they have to do, obviously, but still, we wouldn’t be able to provide those awards if it wasn’t for the generosity of our donors. So, that has a direct impact upon student success.

(23:22):

And taking that one step further, we talked about in the materials, we also provide programs that are essentially faculty development programs. So, these are built around things that are more than materials. These are built around assignments themselves. We work with instructors who want to redesign assignments in ways that provide students with more control over their learning. They center their agency in those ways.

Taylor Pardue (23:48):

Absolutely.

David Tully (23:48):

They contribute towards the knowledge commons, and you can create really exciting experiences through doing so. So, we work with instructors now in different programs. The Open Pedagogy Incubator is one that’s been successful for a number of years, recognized by Educals recently as well. We’ve seen variations of that program pop up all over the country. We’ve supported other schools. We’ve taken it to a UNC System level as well. So, we work with librarians and educators in other schools, and that program is essentially around working directly alongside faculty to redesign the syllabuses or maybe a specific assignment to make it renewable.

(24:30):

And when I say renewable, I mean that when I was an undergraduate student many, many years ago, most commonly I would be writing a five-, six-page paper and do that sort of rinse and repeat. Sometimes I did a good job, and other times I didn’t. The times when I did a good job, once it was graded, that essentially just disappeared. It ended up in the digital waste paper bin. With Open Pedagogy, it doesn’t disappear; it’s renewable. So, we work with instructors who then will work alongside students to publish their work, share them outside the boundaries of NC State, and benefit educators and students from across the world. And in some cases, I mean, we’ve had examples whereby resources developed through the Open Pedagogy Incubator have been used by 50 different schools from across the world, and that’s funded by donors to the Libraries. It can be really remarkable.

(25:25):

I think just how there’s no limit to the work that we can do in Alt-Textbook or through programs like the Open Pedagogy Incubator. Another example we have at the moment is a program called Pit Stop. The Libraries has partnered with the Office of Faculty Excellence, and we’re midway through a semester-long program. We’re working directly alongside NC State faculty from many different disciplines, and we’re examining how to incorporate interactive technologies into their pedagogy and how to do so in a way that’s open, that’s collaborative, that’s inclusive. As part of that program, instructors explore artificial intelligence, they’ll explore extended reality — so, virtual, augmented and so on — that explore game-based learning opportunities. This is not the traditional classroom. This is the classroom of the future, and we think programs like Pit Stop, like the Incubator, powered by the Alt-Textbook Project, we think that we we’re supporting really innovative learning opportunities for all NC State students, and we’re proud that we’re at the forefront of that. We’re really proud that we’ve had the support from donors that see that vision, that are excited by it and want to be part of it as well.

Taylor Pardue (26:51):

Absolutely. I think the programs which you’ve discussed are the perfect highlight. We’re recording this, obviously, early 2025, and there’s a lot of conversations going on about the worth, the value of higher education right now, and I think the Libraries does such a great job of showing we are not only, at NC State, interested in helping students afford to come here, but we are also interested in giving them a cutting-edge education. But even more than that, we are interested in giving them a tailored experience that really prepares them for the future. And philanthropy, obviously, plays a huge role in that.

(27:26):

So, speaking of that early 2025 recording date, still weeks but, really, days away at this point from Day of Giving 2025, which is a huge philanthropy event that we have here at the university when donors can come together on a specific day to really benefit people, programs, places all across campus. For listeners who may be interested, talk about how donors can get involved with the Libraries on Day of Giving this year.

David Tully (27:51):

Yes, and I cannot believe Day of Giving is only around the corner. That seems to come around very quick each year. That’s a really fun day, and it’s something that we’re very excited by at the Libraries, and we have lots of cool things going on in terms of our particular focus at the Libraries. We’re looking to promote the Student Scholarships Program. We’re looking to support the Student Resource Fund as well, which is something I hadn’t talked too much about so far, but I can elaborate on a little bit more.

Taylor Pardue (28:16):

Absolutely.

David Tully (28:17):

Whereas our Student Scholarships Fund supports a very particular program, which I’ve covered, the Student Resource Fund allows the Libraries to make direct interventions in cases where students do not have access to their required materials or even the resources that they need to be successful at NC State. For instance, like a laptop, I think it’s now an essential item for every student, but there are some student[s], whether it’s a life event or a hardware issue, their laptop breaks. I think we’ve all been in that situation whereby a laptop for no apparent reason just suddenly doesn’t want to work for you anymore. That can leave students in a really difficult spot, and that can leave them vulnerable. I think that was underlined a few years ago during the [COVID-19] pandemic, just how vulnerable a lot of our students are to unforeseen circumstances that can impact their ability to take full parts in class and what the knock-on implications of that is.

(29:10):

The Student Resource Fund is essentially there to allow us to be agile and responsive to the needs of students. So, we support programs like Pack Promise, for instance, which are amazing programs that many of your listeners will be familiar with. And we can also do things like, in the past, we’ve partnered with the College of Education’s Transformational Scholars Program. We’ve partnered with the College of Humanity and Social Sciences’ Impact Scholars Program. These are fantastic programs in their own rights, but the Resource Fund allows us to kind of tack on to the work that they’re already doing and grow it a little more by helping to provide access to course materials or technology that isn’t available through some of those programs. We also work closely with folks like Mike Giancola from Student Ombuds. Mike’s been a fantastic partner to the Libraries for many years. In some cases, we get direct referrals, students that are essentially in crisis that don’t have access to some of those things that we’ve talked about as being essential for an NC State student to be successful. The Student Resource Fund allows us to be responsive to those types of situations whereby we can quickly provide access at a minimum fuss to the resources that a student will need to help them stay on the right pathway and towards graduation.

Taylor Pardue (30:34):

Thanks much for sharing those opportunities, David, and we’ll be sure to include links to that in the show notes. For listeners who may want to participate on Day of Giving, I think the Libraries is just a perfect example of, every gift to NC State is important and has the potential to impact so many different students, and the Libraries especially. So, students can obviously take part in so many of the different programs that you’ve mentioned through the Libraries, and really, it gives donors the potential to impact students across majors, across colleges, and just a really great giving opportunity and so fitting for Day of Giving as well.

David Tully (31:07):

Well, thank you. We think that every student at NC State is a student at the Libraries. The Libraries is built, our goal is to support the needs of every NC State student, so no matter what your major is, what your department is or college, everything we do is with an eye on supporting the needs of all of our students. And Day of Giving’s a huge opportunity to support our work, whether it’s resources, whether it’s programs, whether it’s student workers, whether it’s spaces. Whatever it is, there are unique opportunities at the Libraries to support students at NC State.

Taylor Pardue (31:51):

You mentioned the Incubator earlier. Faculty and staff, the Libraries are an incredible resource for those Pack members as well. We talked a little bit about it before we started recording today: I owe, and this podcast owes, so much to the Libraries because of, like you were saying, these Makerspaces, these recording studios that people can come in, free of charge, and expand on their musical abilities, their podcasting recordings, whatever they would like to do in those spaces. That’s how this podcast got started was we were able to borrow a mic from the Libraries. We were able to use library spaces to, when this started, it was during COVID, and we were able to socially distance in some of these meeting spaces and just really make this a reality because of the Libraries. Just all these different resources that largely are made possible through philanthropy. So, just really appreciative of the Libraries and really glad that it’s available for students, faculty and staff.

David Tully (32:49):

I mean, that’s really gratifying to hear, and I hear similar sentiments all the time from students, staff and faculty, that “The Libraries helped me out because of X.” “The Libraries enabled me to do Y.” It’s incredibly gratifying because when you work for an organization like this that can be a genuine difference-maker, that can enable somebody to do something they otherwise couldn’t, I just think that’s really powerful.

Taylor Pardue (33:15):

It is such a common misconception, unfortunately, for public libraries, university libraries, all kinds of libraries, that “This is a place I can come to check out a book” — which is invaluable. I love to read. I’m so thankful for libraries, but they really can and do offer so much for members and for visitors and everything. So, hopefully this episode really reminds listeners that NC State Libraries, especially, has so much to offer, and we’re just so thankful for all that you do.

David Tully (33:46):

Thank you, Taylor, and this has been such a pleasure to meet with you today, and I genuinely could talk all day about how fantastic the Libraries are, but I’ll spare your listeners that.

Taylor Pardue (33:56):

Well, we’ll look forward to hopefully having you back on a future episode and give some updates. And the Libraries just continues to bring new projects like this out, new programs, and just really impacting all of our students and faculty and staff, as we’ve mentioned. So, thank you again.

David Tully (34:08):

Anytime. You’re welcome.

Taylor Pardue (34:15):

To learn more about the NC State University Libraries, please visit lib.ncsu.edu. If you’d like to hear even more stories of Wolfpack success, please subscribe to the NC State Philanthropy Podcast today via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or Podbean. Please leave a comment and rating as well to let us know how we’re doing. Thanks for listening, and as always, go Pack.